[Az-Geocaching] Is Shelly at it a again or what?????
Brent Milner
listserv@azgeocaching.com
Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:11:12 -0700
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Ken, your response hit it exactly. I'd suggest doing some research to find
out who (as in a specific person) manages the DVRAC, and seeing how they
would respond to the original complaint as well as your retort. I'm
especially curious as to their stance on the Native American reaction to
their center desecrating their sacred land.
Some of those quotes from the original letter just seem too preposterous to
have come from the management team of this facility. I almost want to assume
it's a hoax of some kind.
FroBro Q-Tip
-----Original Message-----
From: az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:40 PM
To: listserv@azgeocaching.com
Subject: Re: [Az-Geocaching] Is Shelly at it a again or what?????
This is my response to the Geocahing forum. Along with the offensive photo.
Hello,
I would like to introduce myself as the owner of the virtual cache that has
become the center of this controversy. The reason that I created the cache
was to share with others some of the beauty and history that our state has
to offer.
I clearly posted on the cache page the hours that the museum is open and
there was never a need for a visitor to “trespass”. In order to find the
answers to the questions you never had to leave the public access paths that
are maintained at the site.
As far as the “offensive” photograph it consists of my daughter leaning up
against a boulder with her arm above the petroglyph. This boulder is located
directly in the walking path that a visitor takes to view the various
petroglyphs at the site. Since this is a museum and this particular boulder
was directly in the walking path I did not believe it was “off limits” The
rest of the boulders are separated from visitors by short tubular fencing
that clearly define restricted space. Since this boulder was directly in the
visitors pathway, not separated by fencing, with no signs stating do not
touch I did not believe there was any problem with my daughter posing by the
glyph. My impression of the placement of the boulder directly in the walking
path was that it was put there exactly for that purpose. This boulder is
also clearly separated from main rock panels giving me the impression that
it was there for public inspection. Many museums have similar displays that
the public is allowed to touch and examine. We are sorry if we violated the
museum rules but it was an honest mistake and this particular boulder should
have been clearly marked, or fenced off.
Whiling visiting the site, we spoke with the park ranger who happened to be
Native American. During our conversation he explained how many of the local
Arizona tribes once considered this site as a primary sacred location to
them. He explained to us that many of these tribes felt betrayed and
offended by the academic community taking over this sacred site and believed
these people demonstrated little compassion, understanding or respect for
their cultural heritage. Many of these tribes consider this site desecrated
and will no longer visit this area because of the interference of the
academic community.
Is there a double standard that the museum is offended about a picture of a
child touching “their” boulder, yet have no difficulty alienating entire
tribes of Native Americans in order to conduct their research? The attitude
we’ve derived appears to be elitist, encouraging academia but forgoing
anyone else’s learning.
The museum is run by Arizona State University, which is a publicly funded
school. They lease the site from the Maricopa County Flood Control district,
which is also publicly funded. I find the following statement interesting.
“ I appreciate the removal of the Center from your website. It has attracted
some visitors. However, we do not think your website is the kind of PR the
Center is seeking”
It interesting that they want to be selective in who can visit this publicly
funded site. Who else is not welcome? The handicapped? Anglos’? Blacks?
Hispanic’s? Hunters? Fishermen? 4x4 enthusiasts? Dog lovers? I do not recall
seeing the sign on what they consider “acceptable” visitors.
What is acceptable P.R.? National Geographic Magazine? Readers Digest?
Playboy? Since when do they get to control freedom of speech regarding this
publicly supported site?
I also find this statement interesting:
“Please remove the Deer Valley Rock Art Center from your website. I hope
this request will not turn into a legal matter”
What legal matter? There never, ever, was anything placed on this publicly
owned property. This site is listed a “Phoenix Points of Pride” and “The
National Register Of Historic Places”. Are they also going to be sued? Do a
Web Search on “Deer Valley Rock Art Center” and see how many hits you get.
Are they going to threaten legal action against all these sites? I seem to
remember a little article called the 1st amendment that maybe they should
read about.
The sad thing is that as an educational institution they have missed an
opportunity to help educated the Geocaching community about the importance
of not touching petroglyphs. After learning of their concern I could have
posted on the cache page about how the oils in fingerprints can actually
harm a petroglyph. This opportunity is now lost because of their narrow
minded thinking.
Ken
WhereRWee?
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Ken,=20
your response hit it exactly. I'd suggest doing some research to find out=
who=20
(as in a specific person) manages the DVRAC, and seeing how they would re=
spond=20
to the original complaint as well as your retort. I'm especially curious =
as to=20
their stance on the Native American reaction to their center desecrating =
their=20
sacred land.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Some=20
of those quotes from the original letter just seem too preposterous to ha=
ve come=20
from the management team of this facility. I almost want to assume it's a=
hoax=20
of some kind.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>FroBro=20
Q-Tip</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D620280717-20022003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTah=
oma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com=20
[mailto:az-geocaching-admin@listserv.azgeocaching.com]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Ken<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:40 PM<BR><B>To:</=
B>=20
listserv@azgeocaching.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Az-Geocaching] Is Shell=
y at it=20
a again or what?????<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is my response to the Geocahing for=
um. Along=20
with the offensive photo.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>Hello,</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>I would like to introduce myself as the owner of the virtual cac=
he that=20
has become the center of this controversy. The reason that I created the =
cache=20
was to share with others some of the beauty and history that our state ha=
s to=20
offer.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>I clearly posted on the cache page the hours that the museum is =
open and=20
there was never a need for a visitor to =93trespass=94.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>In order to find the answers to=
the=20
questions you never had to leave the public access paths that are maintai=
ned at=20
the site.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>As far as the =93offensive=94 photograph it consists of my daugh=
ter leaning=20
up against a boulder with her arm above the petroglyph. This boulder is l=
ocated=20
directly in the walking path that a visitor takes to view the various=20
petroglyphs at the site. Since this is a museum and this particular bould=
er was=20
directly in the walking path I did not believe it was =93off limits=94 Th=
e rest of=20
the boulders are separated from visitors by short tubular fencing that cl=
early=20
define restricted space. Since this boulder was directly in the visitors=20
pathway, not separated by fencing, with no signs stating do not touch I d=
id not=20
believe there was any problem with my daughter posing by the glyph. My=20
impression of the placement of the boulder directly in the walking path w=
as that=20
it was put there exactly for that purpose. This boulder is also clearly=20
separated from main rock panels giving me the impression that it was ther=
e for=20
public inspection. Many museums have similar displays that the public is =
allowed=20
to touch and examine. We are sorry if we violated the museum rules but it=
was an=20
honest mistake and this particular boulder should have been clearly marke=
d, or=20
fenced off. </FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">Whiling visiting the site, we spoke with the par=
k ranger=20
who happened to be Native American.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbs=
p;=20
</SPAN>During our conversation he explained how many of the local Arizona=
tribes=20
once considered this site as a primary sacred location to them.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He explained to us that many of=
these=20
tribes felt betrayed and offended by the academic community taking over t=
his=20
sacred site and believed these people demonstrated little compassion,=20
understanding or respect for their cultural heritage.<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Many of these tribes consider t=
his site=20
desecrated and will no longer visit this area because of the interference=
of the=20
academic community.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>Is there a double standard that the museum is offended about a p=
icture of=20
a child touching =93their=94 boulder, yet have no difficulty alienating e=
ntire=20
tribes of Native Americans in order to conduct their research? The attitu=
de=20
we=92ve derived appears to be elitist, encouraging academia but forgoing =
anyone=20
else=92s learning.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>The museum is run by Arizona State University, which is a public=
ly funded=20
school. They lease the site from the Maricopa County Flood Control distri=
ct,=20
which is also publicly funded. I find the following statement=20
interesting.</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><FONT face=3D"Times=
New Roman"=20
size=3D3>=93 </FONT></B><SPAN class=3Dip-normal-font1><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I appreciate the removal=
of the=20
Center from your website. It has attracted </SPAN></B></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR><SPAN=20
class=3Dip-normal-font1>some visitors. However, we do not think your webs=
ite is=20
the kind of PR the </SPAN><BR><SPAN class=3Dip-normal-font1>Center is=20
seeking=94<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>It interesting that they want to be selective in who can visit t=
his=20
publicly funded site. Who else is not welcome? The handicapped? Anglos=92=
? Blacks?=20
Hispanic=92s? Hunters? Fishermen? 4x4 enthusiasts? Dog lovers? I do not r=
ecall=20
seeing the sign on what they consider =93acceptable=94 visitors.</FONT></=
P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times Ne=
w Roman"=20
size=3D3>What is acceptable P.R.? National Geographic Magazine? Readers D=
igest?=20
Playboy? Since when do they get to control freedom of speech regarding th=
is=20
publicly supported site?</FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I also find this stateme=
nt=20
interesting:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
class=3Dip-normal-font1><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">=93Please remove the Dee=
r Valley=20
Rock Art Center from your website. I hope</SPAN></B></SPAN><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR><SPAN=20
class=3Dip-normal-font1>this request will not turn into a legal=20
matter=94<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">What legal matter? There=
never,=20
ever, was anything placed on this publicly owned property. This site is l=
isted=20
a<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>=93Phoenix Points of Pri=
de=94 and=20
=93The National Register Of Historic Places=94. Are they also going to be=
sued? Do a=20
Web Search on =93Deer Valley Rock Art Center=94 and see how many hits you=
get. Are=20
they going to threaten legal action against all these sites? I seem to re=
member=20
a little article called the 1<SUP>st</SUP> amendment that maybe they shou=
ld read=20
about.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The sad thing is that as=
an=20
educational institution they have missed an opportunity to help educated =
the=20
Geocaching community about the importance of not touching petroglyphs. Af=
ter=20
learning of their concern I could have posted on the cache page about how=
the=20
oils in fingerprints can actually harm a petroglyph. This opportunity is =
now=20
lost because of their narrow minded thinking.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN>=
</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN class=3Dip-norma=
l-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Ken<o:p></o:p></SPAN></S=
PAN></P><SPAN=20
class=3Dip-normal-font1><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family:=
'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-lan=
guage: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Wher=
eRWee?<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =20
</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><FONT SIZE=3D3 COLOR=3DBLUE><PRE>******=
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It is intended for the named recipient(s) only.
If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager=
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